Podcast Number Sex. Pick your link below and right-click and select Save As (on PC) or Control-Click and select "Download Linked File" in MacOS to save it to your hard drive... OR click the "podcast" icon above for the RSS podcast feed (MP3 low quality).Special guest, Mr. Daryn Berlin, General Manager, Counter Culture Coffee, Durham, NC.
Show highlights:
- News bits (baby-making)
- Phone call from Fritz Storm, 2002 World Barista Champion
- About George Howell and Terroir Coffee's green freezing
- Extraction ratios and weighing your shots.
TWO DIFFERENT FILES, but the same show... your choice:
MP3 format, 12.6 MB, 1:13:08. 24 kbps bitrate, 11.025 kHz sample rate (low-quality audio)
AAC format (for iTunes and iPods), 36.1 MB, 1:13:08. 64 kbps bitrate, 44.1 kHz sample rate (almost CD quality audio, with "bookmarking" for iTunes and iPods: if you stop midway, you can come back to where you left off... FYI, it will show up on your iPod in "Audiobooks").
Questions? Comments? Hate mail? Email us at podcast@portafilter.net, and we might read your email during the next show.
Let us know how you feel about the AAC format for iTunes and iPods experiment.
Because of "personal stuff," we'll probably take a 2 week hiatus. Enjoy this podcast... it's a keeper!
guys, freezing green coffee is not theory, i was really surprised to hear you talk about it like this. Terroir (tare – wahr) has been doing this very successfully for a while now, vaccuum packing it in foil bags and freezing it. Roasters do not need to do further 'experimentations', they need to figure out how to make this financially feasible if they want to preserve and stabilize green coffee quality (at any point they desire) all year round, or for several years. No longer is coffee tired in january and february when green has aged and new crops are unavailable.
ReplyDeletealso, green can be 'held' at whatever stage a roaster chooses. a quote from counterculturecoffee.com: Coffee is not a static science -- beans change over time. We constantly revisit our roasts to make sure the choices we’ve made are still valid. Roasting times and temperatures need to be recalculated to account for organic changes within the beans. There’s no machine to tell us when or how to do this and there aren’t many people that can do it either. That’s where our master roaster comes in.
That is where freezing comes in!
very exciting, and hopefully it will not just apply to the home roaster.
alistair.
Alistair,
ReplyDeleteWhen discussing the freezing thing, I used the term "theory" in the strictest sense, meaning that it's an idea that's fairly accepted and researched, but that will still need it repeated and researched by others before it's widely accepted as fact.
That having been said, I frankly put most ideas about coffee in the "theory" category.
I don't mean to be the fart in the car- but doesn't this take away from the idea of enjoying agricultural goods when their in season? To appreciate a peach when it is in season, not year round? To have fond memories of that great year for Antiqua or Cauca, not just be able to re-live it on demand?
ReplyDeleteI have heard about George doing this for some time now and I think it is nothing but a bad thing for our industry. Another example of technology trying to control nature and technology trying to make the specialty market a year-round thing available to anyone who wants to pay for it....aka NO LONGER SPECIAL.
And what are the costs of this deep freezing or the use of energy to maintain this frozen state just for a cup of coffee? How many of us have room to install deep freezers to store loads of green or would go to such lengths? Are we going to freeze containers of the "Great" coffees?
Fortunately, we differ from the wine model in the fact that our product lives by freshness and the season, it is the one fact that keeps the advantage in this business in the small local roasters camp. In the wine model, there is very little advantage for small vitners and winemakers because of the fact that wine is bottled and preserved and style can be copied by larger producers.
George Howell is just cutting the throats of all of us small specialty coffee roasters. This will turn into yet another tool in the large corporate coffee's tool chest and mark my words- will come back to bite us.
We should be protesting this ridiculous trend by , George, not praising it.
While I respect Howell's work greatly, I am not so excited about the prospect of freezing.
ReplyDeleteIt's man vs. nature.
In the middle of the last century, we spent a considerable amount of time researching and producing frozen and ready-made products for consumption. Processing food and controlling nature became our goals.
That said, I think freezing is best suited to the home roaster/enthusiast. On a larger scale, it works well as Terrior's calling card. If others follow suit, we'll surely experience freezer-burn French Roast as the all-year specialty. (I'm a riding a bummer this week, sorry I'm so negative)
Peter Guiliano and Geoff Watts had an idea about keeping coffee in pergamino and milling it in-house just before roasting....hmmmm, very interesting!
Mark and I posted simultaneously!!!
ReplyDeleteGreat discussion, as per usual. I feel honored that my name was mentioned on-air.
ReplyDeleteNick, it's funny you should mention it. I start working at Hotwire (with Dismas S. among many other talented people) next week. I'm way excited.
Karl
I also liked how Fritz said he had never heard the thing about the 5 star experience. That was cool.
ReplyDeleteapologies, I have not yet listened to the podcast. However, I've been thinking about the freezing thing a lot lately and wanted to comment.
ReplyDeleteThe aesthete in me likes the idea. It is agony to watch great coffees fade and wither over time, and it is a drag when, as a roaster, you are stuck with coffees you feel are past their prime. I would love to pull out a bag of that 2001 Harrar from the cryogenic chamber and experience the thrill again. Is that so wrong?
The environmentalist luddite in me hates the idea. The money and energy it would take to freeze a containerload of super coffee (packed in nondegradable plastic bags) boggles the mind. This energy translates into fossil fuel usage, greenhouse gas production, and money in the pockets of the energy industry, money that could be going to a variety of other places including the farmer. Eeeech.
As a pragmatist, I know that even when I roast and produce incredible coffees, more than 90% of the time that coffee is ruined by staleness, improper brewing, or other waste. I also know that a lot of great coffee is ruined at the washing station or the dry mill, or in transport. If you choose to look at coffee enjoyment and appreciation en toto, I feel that you could get a lot more bang for your buck by using the money it would take to freeze coffee on consumer education, brewing equipment development, farmer education, and infrastructure at the producer level.
A small disagreement with Mark... the only rationale for freezing is to increase quality. The "big guys" have no history of making decisions based on a desire to increase quality, especially when they are expensive decisions.
Peter
I would want to do more evaluation of the physical and chemical effects of not only freezing but more importantly thawing coffee before I jumped on board this bandwagon. As an ex-chef, I'm too familiar with the negative effects of freezing to get excited quite yet.
ReplyDeleteRE: "freezing" of green beans
ReplyDelete1. Comparing the "freezing" of green coffee to the freezing of fresh tomatoes is very dubious. It's not clear that there's enough free water in green coffee to form the kind of large ice crystals that ruin a frozen tomato. It might be more accurate to drop the term "freezing" for coffee and substitute "low temperature storage."
2. These storage methods will be difficult to test casually. Freezing at -40 is different than throwing some green beans in a home freezer at 0F. Very few of us have access to these conditions.
3. If people do test this, a tight moisture-proof container is very important for long-term storage. Something like a heat-sealed, foil-lined coffee bag without the one-way exhaust valve might work.
Re Andy, #2:
ReplyDeleteI was surprised that Howell said that the freezer type doesn't matter - a super deep freeze or a normal house freezer. It kind of threw me for a loop. I also thought you'd want to flash freeze these things to keep the transition from normal temps to frozen as quick as possible, but he said no.
Lastly... why isn't there any commentary like this over at CG in response to the original Howell podcast thread? Whine.... :D
Mark:
ReplyDeleteRe: freezer type doesn't matter: Next time we meet you'll have to give me 20 lashes for NOT listening to the Howell podcast at CG. I'm pretty close to the saturation point...too much online coffee content...not enough mental energy to harvest it all...sorry.
Homeless:
Re: how well green keep vacuum sealed at room temp: Removing oxygen is probably not the only factor in green deterioration. There are plenty of reactions that occur without oxygen, hence the utility of low temps which slow everything down. Wouldn't be hard to test your proposal, though.
One little note: vacuum packing plus storage above 50F plus high moisture content is the perfect recipe for botulism, which will kill you. Green coffee isn't high enough in moisture for this to happen, but don't vacuum pack your leftover sandwich and store it at room temperature. Just FYI.
the proof is in the cup. throw your skeptic minds aside and go order some coffee from Terroir. freeze some green and do a blind cupping if you have to. its a done deal, these guys are not fooling around, they freeze because coffee will not last for a whole year. so simple, so obvious. are you pleased drinking coffee in january that is really not great? how do you approach this issue?
ReplyDeleteare you still using spouts?!
alistair.
You deal with it by buying green throughout the year from different origins and serving only coffee that is great at that time of year.
ReplyDeleteI'd rather have great coffee all the time and not have all coffees all the time than have all coffees all the time and all be merely good.
For most of last year up until November, Alistair's shop had (without question) the best espresso in our city. And almost as suddenly as it peaked (it was getting better all the time as the shop honed their technique) the magic was gone.
ReplyDeleteThey struggled with their supplier for a couple of months --- trying to find out why, and to correct the problem (they also checked every other variable under the sun).
In the end, it turned out to be the deterioration of green in the roast (mostly the Sumatra). This deterioration was all the worst because the supplier had very poor green storage protocols --- bags of green were exposed to wild temperature and moisture variations. I can remember shaking my head as I walked through the storage area.
I can't tell you how much time, effort, and energy (money) this cost all involved. Although good for everyone's learning curve, it was a mess -- and the roaster just didn't want to hear about it.
Green storage…. It’s the next big issue. More and more café owners and consumers are developing palates that will recognize and demand better consistency in the cup. The sun is setting on the days of just leaving sacks of green any old place.
I know a exporter in Peru that is using the freezing method to compare crops from various regions from year to year to monitor improvements in the crop.
ReplyDeleteIn this case--it is very useful.
I heard a rumor that Howell flies the coffee out of origin in refrigerated planes. Wonder if its true.
Keith,
ReplyDeleteThe rumour, from what I understand, is true. Flying the green keeps the beans from sitting in a container ship - where it would/could experience the worst temp/moisture variations.
Podcast Number SEX??? I like it!
ReplyDelete.Ryan
dude... Jay and his little Maark Priince.... comment made me that water up the nose laugh..... my eyes are watering... you guys are too funny... keep up the good work (wiping away the tears)
ReplyDeleteI am surprised by Mark's apparent knee-jerk reaction to my freezing coffee (Terroir Coffee), especially his assertion that the big guys will take this over (I am a very little guy these days!). Big guys cut expenses. They don't add them until they are absolutely forced to.
ReplyDeleteFreezing should pertain to only one kind of coffee: exemplary. There is still very little of such coffee around. A farmer recognized for consistent exemplary coffee does not have to make a long term contract with anyone. The great Bordeau Grand Crus were forced to make long term contracts until the mid 1800's. No longer! With recognition comes independence. That is what we want for farmers, right? We all agree that exemplary coffee should fetch very high prices for the farmer. The problem has been that green coffee begins its descent towards genericity within just a few months - and sometimes weeks - after harvest. The great Central or African coffees we receive in March - July are already losing their finer aromatics by September. By December even the hardest beans are becoming woody, losing sweetness and aromatics, yet we keep roasting them until the new crop arrives. I do presume, Mark, that, despite your loving to consume coffee in its season, like so much fresh asparagus, you do sell your single origins throughout the year? The slide in quality over one year is monumetal.
Freezing is only one tool in the search for quality and the just rewarding of farmers-processors who provide it. No one has THE answer. We all have parts of the equation to share.
Far more research has to be made on freezing regarding what temperatures are ideal, how such coffee should be treated, how long it lasts etc. This is an ongoing experiment - but one with genuine results which are exhilerating!
Another major problem for quality coffee that I hear very few bringing up, but which Robert G alludes to, is the commodity treatment specialty coffee receives - jute bags on ocean-going ships! How much really fine coffee arrives here dead? This should be an emergency focus of CQI.
In answer to aother query in this conversation, I have flown coffee from origin; it is timeliness rather than short term refrigeration that matters here - again only exemplary like Cup of Excellence coffees I've purchased and paid top dollar for. When I did not do this I found a distressing loss of quality. Others in US Specialty are doing the same now.
George
Gah... it's like Howell completely shut Inman up ;)
ReplyDeleteI'd like to see Mark's response. Anyone know if he's still reading this?
And Trish. Are you in Seattle yet? When are you gonna be coming up to Vancouver for a visit!
Well Mr. Prince, your wish is my command.
ReplyDeleteHardly a knee-jerk reaction, more of a call for sanity.
Yes, I do offer SO coffees and when they fade, we post "Out of Season" on our website and offering sheet. Much like many farms do with their produce. We have been able to do this for over 13 years with no problems whatsoever.
It is my firm belief that customers appreciate this effort, for I am not just trying to clear out my warehouse, I want them to appreciate these coffees when they are at their peak. Any coffees we have left over "after the fall" are used in darker blends.
I believe customers are left with an anticipation when the coffees come in fresh from harvest, rather than have them whenever they want. It also offers us the opportunity to pay even more for the coffees, if I can create the buzz and show the scarcity of such great coffee.
What is the difference between what you do, George and "Flash Frozen" seafood? or frozen fruit and veg? The whole notion of this lessens the preciousness of the coffee and reduces it to some 2nd rate product which will be looked at as some processed food. I hold the same feelings for Decaffeination- How many people are asking Robery Sinskey, Pat Kuletto or Rodney Strong to make great vintage non-alcoholic wine? Who out there are asking the great Brewmasters to make fine N/A beer? The whole notion of more an more process keeps the entire reputation of the specialty industry down. This notion of freezing is along the same line...more processing and preservation.
Like I said earlier, the one thing that sets us apart from the wine world is the fact that our product is seasonal. No winemaker worth a damn would vacuum seal grapes or grape must from a great year to make wine later.
To also say that this will allow for farmers to earn more...well the proof is in the pudding, George. More processing and flying coffee from source (a ludacris idea) will add A LOT of cost to the bottom line. How much will be left for the farmer???? Add to that the small amount of coffee that will be treated this way and your idea of farmers earning more is mere hype. What percentage of specialty farmers will have their lives improved from this concept? How many communities are going to be strengthened?
Again, this will do nothing to help our industry. While, I believe Mr. Howell has nothing but good intentions, he simply is not looking at the numerous downsides to this idea.
Wine is not seasonal? Winemakers don't think outside the box to improve (or concentrate, or intensify) their products?
ReplyDeleteLate Harvest?
Icewine?
I'm still not sold 100% on the freezing green myself - I'm concerned about cellular damage from the temperature changes, and how freezing green (tried it over the last three weeks) seems to give a shorter "roast prime" life after it is thawed and roasted (seems I only have a two or three day window of really good taste from the roasted coffee).
But innovation moves agricultural industries. Australian wines are some of the world's best now because that industry as a whole innovates like nothing else in the wine world.
Late Harvest and Icewine had its nay sayers too. "It's not wine". "It's offensive, it's so sweet". But people are coming around in that area too.
It's not my place to address the "does it help farmers" comments - that's up to George. But I'll say three words: Cup of Excellence.
Mark
Wow! where do I start with your comments....
ReplyDeleteAs far as processing and harvest, LH wines are just wines harvested later in season. They are not frozen, preserved, doctored, etc. LH wine still argues my point. These can be vintage wines, SO wines and have the flavor of the place and year. Some are outstanding and some are best left to top your pancakes.
Icewine? How many top rated (90 plus) Robert Parker Icewines do you know of? Aren't we talking about preserving quality? How about those fruit infused wines? or wine coolers...where are you going with this point?
Innovation does move agricultural industries- that we can agree on. The question is- in what direction? Are you saying that innovation is always improving quality? Are you sure you believe that? The march for processing and automating agriculture has ALWAYS resulted in the loss of rare varieties and dummed down flavor. How many canned or jarred heirloom tomato sauces are you aware of? In the frozen food section can you get Scarlet Runner Beans as well as industrial Green Beans? Hey how about bottled and canned juices? mmm Just as good as fresh squeezed!
As for "Does it help farmers." I can answer that for you...Uh NOT MUCH! COE has not greatly imporved the lives of farmers in general or community. For large farmers and cooperatives, the auction lots are very small and usually a fraction of their total production. Very small farmers (1-4 acres) are usually too small to benefit from the program. To top that off, a recent World Bank study reports that poverty in many developing coffee countries is getting worse- not better. Even with the rising popularity of FT, COE, WBC, Coffee Corps, RA and Organic.
Hi Mark.
ReplyDeleteI don't know what Late Harvest might be in California or elsewhere in the States, but Late Harvest in Canada and Germany (where it originated, IIRC), means the grapes are picked in sub zero (>0C) temperatures. The grapes are not quite frozen because of the sugar content, but getting there.
In BC, Late Harvest dictates wines picked in temperatures as low as -12C (-13C sustained is Ice Wine certified).
The bottom line is this - grapes, just like coffee, are a crop. Things are done to improve the vine year to year. Making wine out of grapes that have sat in a cooler for six months produces shitty wine. Pretty much proven. What is not proven yet is if Howell's freezing technique improves the year-long quality of roasted coffee.
In wine, the march forward in innovation (I'm not talking about the processing and automating of agriculture - I'm talking about re-examining the entire process from seed to er, goblet) has seen VAST improvements in the overall quality of all wines, including the daily reds or whites you may pick up for $8 or $10.
And the only "wine" I truly know a lot about, that is Port wine, is done in such a method that is entirely old school, including still stomping grapes by feet. But storage methods, examining how the brandy should be added, corking, the works is all going through innovations. And the Port Industry has seen massive growth in growing quality despite some less than ideal Douro Valley weather in the last five to ten years, giving us what is possibly the best vintage ever (2000), and a top five vintage (2003).
As for Robert Parker. Great guy. Knows his stuff. And old school. Ice Wine is to some folks the "espresso" of the wine world - extreme concentrated tastes and flavours. Not many wine snobs have grasped it yet... kind of like what goes on in the world of coffee.
I read your comments about ice wine, and I'm thinking - wow, does he even know what the sub industry is about? comparing ice wine to a wine cooler.... it's like comparing a perfect shot of espresso to Nescafe's "Parisien Moments" instant powder.
Then I read the comments comparing freezing green to the frozen food section. I'm sorry, I just don't get the comparsion (except for one thing - tuna, frozen (and unfrozen) properly, is virtually indistinguishable from the fresh stuff, save for the colour. I got this from the former chef of one of N. America's top restaurants).
Now to be fair Mark, I do know where you're coming from and what your primary interests are - your interest is in farmers and keeping automation and such out of those farms to preserve jobs and give a living wage. At least that's my take from reading your website and the various things you've written and discussed in the past.
But to pretty much "attack" COE, FT, Coffee Corps, et al. Dude. I'm shaking my head here. Why not attack the real enemy of poverty in coffee growing regions - the Big Four. At least with COE, FT, and Coffee Corps, people are *trying* to make a difference, and make the general public know about the plight of the farmer.
Reading that last post, it was as if Canada, UK and the US went to war againts, I dunno... who can I equate with the Big Four... how about Saddam (lol), and you, representing the US decided to use the poor Canucks and Brits for target practice in between fighting Saddam's boys.
(that last paragraph was dedicated to Trish and her love of such literary tools ;).
Regards
Mark
I dunno if he was attacking, just saying that they don't always translate to the reported extra dosh (in the case of COE). It is good work, but there is a lot more that needs doing that doesn't necessarily need to be orchestrated by a middleman organization... a lot innovation happens on a smaller scale.
ReplyDeleteCOE is great for getting the word out about quality, though. No denying that.
And Inman does support CoE. He has been a judge. People shouldn't stop looking at these things critically, just because they've participated.
And about the freezing. I don't think we need to discuss the thawing and what not. I think that Howell has proven that, so why get into it. What you guys have not really addressed is the main problem that Inman has (and Peter and me to an extent). Why-are-we-freezing-fresh-seasonal-food!?
Just because we can?
Thanks for the f**king analogies, Mr. Prince, but they are just lousy analogies, dammit. The wine analogy is just no good for this because coffee is way more complex and just DIFFERENT! So stop it...right now! Or I'm gonna get annoyed.
I'm totally into similies lately. But that's apples and oranges.
trish
Ice wine pancakes.....mmmmmmmmm.
ReplyDeleteMr. Prince,
ReplyDeleteYou are right, I do not seem to understand the definition of "Late Harvest" wine in Canada. In the rest of the world, late harvest wines are wines that are left on the vine to dehydrate and look like raisins when picked. The profile is more tart and comples. In Germany, the late harvest is calle spatlese, auslese, beerenauslese and trockenbeerenauslese.
If the grape becomes infected with Botrytis (noble rot) in the process, the wine can become extremely sweet. Sauternes are an example of this process.
Now as for ice wines, I still stand on my footing that it is a fad that has a few followers and many doubters. Here's the problem from the view of a doubter....many methods to concentrate sugars (freezing mechanically or naturally) do concentrate flavor, but have been proven time and again to loose many volatile flavor compounds. The wines are certainly bigger but less complex.
In 1989 the French came up with an interesting way to concentrate by evaporating grape must under vacuum. Under vacuum the wine evaporates at 68f or 20c, exactly the temp during fermentation- not a bit hotter. This has been proven to preserve the volatile flavor compounds and produce a far more complex concentrated wine. Unfortunately, like flying green on jets and deep freezing green, this process involves a lot of equipment, can only do small batches and is very expensive to do.
Now, there are parts of Sauternes where they do use a freezing technique (cryoextraction) but it is mechanical.
Finally, I agree with Trish that I was not attacking anyone (thanks for the support Trish!). I am merely pointing out that many people write off their various programs by saying "This will help the lives of farmers." It's almost as annoying of an arguement as "We do it for the kids." I am simply pointing out the fact that studies are showing that the "Farmers" are slipping deeper into poverty and very few are truly benefiting.
Anyone who has done their homework will find that the bulk of farms that have truly benefited from the COE were already well established and well funded large estates. I have been on COE juries and saw very few small campesinos rolling up in Benzo's after the auction hype had settled.
Look, I firmly believe that organic farmers have the ablility to climb out of poverty if they produce a high quality product. The onus on me and all my brethren who believe in the organic movement is to find a premium market that will pay elevated prices for these coffees in order to pass the increase on to the producers. The fact remains that so far, this has not had a remarkable impact world-wide. Do some people benefit? Sure. But this should not be about a couple of people benefiting. This thing, and all other things like it should be about benefiting a broad spectrum of farmers.
This is not an attack, or a criticisim, just a sober fact. If anyone perceived it as so, then I am truly sorry.
Hmph.
ReplyDeleteHas anybody experimented with "pre-roasting" coffee to drive off moisture before freezing or even just dry storage? I mean just before first crack. It seems risky to me, but I will try it with a tiny batch... I figure it's worth a go. I will experiment with every one of these methods, for all you coffeegeeks (and to feed my hunger for information).
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