An excellent blog by Douglas Takeshi Wolfe helped to clarify some thoughts I've had about the current espresso scene. Despite our lofty pretensions, there is, in my opinion, a bit of uncomfortable similarity between that Starbucks triple shot venti caramel latte and one of our "third wave" overdosed 22g triple basket espressos.Does quality coffee always have to be delivered in sledgehammer quantities? At times all the customer wants or needs is a tiny cup. So shouldn't a good barista be able to pour an excellent single? And for Clover coffee, a cup doesn't need to be a jitter-inducing 16 oz. Are the customers so brainwashed by McDonald's and Burger King that they can't appreciate sensibly-sized coffees? If they are brainwashed, perhaps we need to make more effort to educate them about this, just as we educate them about single origins and sustainable farming.
Many baristas and cafe staff are drinking big coffees so often that they've developed a tolerance. But 22g overdosed triples deliver huge amounts of caffeine, and not everyone can handle this volume of stimulant. When not in denial, even barista champions realize they're having trouble managing caffeine intake.
Seems like a significant step in the evolution of our fledgling espresso culture will take place when everything isn't Oversized, Overcaffeinated, and Over The Top. That's the province of Starbucks and the other fast food, low-quality companies. Since coffee is both a drug and a culinary experience, shouldn't we take a different path? In the long run, restraint and elegance will serve us better than brute force.
In quality cuisine, Less is More.
Warning Mr. Schecter... approaching dangerous territory! Thou shalt not criticise the triple basket.
ReplyDeleteBut yay to this posting.
Mark... who's waiting for the "single basket challenge" competition.
I'm with you Andy, I am not a big fan of the triple basket. When I pull a shot with a triple basket, it is almost too dull. I have been experimenting with my single basket working on getting the does consistent and pulling shots without channeling. I will say I pulled my very first god shot the other day with my single basket.
ReplyDeleteA few thoughts . . .
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, NICE de-blowing your wad, AndyS.
That said, you're somewhat throwing the baby out with the bath water.
On principle, I agree with you. I just had a lengthy conversation with a respected coffee-dood yesterday, revolving around the fact that while we pull our shots in LM OEM double-baskets, and with spouted/unmodified/crotched portafilters, others, using the same coffee, use triple baskets and punani-less portafilters (ouch!). We are, in many ways, more "hard" on the coffee than others, who dose-up and ristretto-down. That said, it's a choice, and it's a choice of extraction-paradigms.
I think you need to clarify your point a bit. "Overdosed 22g triple basket espressos" is different from what you wrote later, "22g overdosed triples."
A "triple" is three ounces, if you assume a single is 1 oz. and a double is 2. Utilizing a triple-basket does not a triple-espresso make.
22g triple espressos would indeed have more caffeine than a double espresso would. Naturally. However, are you sure that a 22g double espresso pulled on a triple basket, has MORE caffeine than an 18g double? If the resulting extraction (let's stick with volume for now ;-D) is 2 ounces, an extrapolation based on my understanding of caffeine and espresso extraction tells me that the 18g double will have more caffeine. I definitely could be wrong.
Also, Andy, be careful what you're implying. Is a 19-gram double, resulting in 1.0 oz total volume of extraction, therefore quality-cuisine enough for ya?
Either you need to clarify your statements, or Tonx is gonna call "StrawMan® on you."
I'll also confess a bit of "anti-triple-basket" snobbery, but only in my past. I have since come to understand the triple-basket's place is in espresso.
I secretly disapproved (to myself), of Intelligentsia's use of triple-baskets in their coffeebars. I thought that throwing more coffee at the problem was, in a way, cheating. "Corking the bat" I would say. Until I had a conversation with Mr. Matt Riddle.
Me: So how many grams do you guys actually put in those cavernous triple baskets?
Matt: Umm, about 19-20 grams. What about you guys? How much coffee do you guys dose into your double baskets at murky?
Me: . . . umm . . . about 19-20 grams.
I felt a little ashamed at myself. I would disrespect triple-baskets and their proponents no more.
Now bottomless portafilters.... that's a different story. ;-)
I'm taking your bait again Andy, but I hope this style of posting is not going to become a trend...
ReplyDeleteThis is the second post where I think you are insinuating your thesis rather than stating it flat-out in order to be provocative. Am I to read this as you are advocating some particular (though unstated) extraction ratio?
Is your beef strictly with the caffeine content of 22g extraction or something more? I'm not sure all readers of this blog are insider enough to understand the full context of the dosing debate™ that you might be eluding to some partisanship in. Your slamming of the triple ristretto is pretty abstract here.
When you say a barista should be "able to pull a single", do you mean that platonically or do you think that coffeebars should be offering that as an option in a busy production environment (which I would strongly argue against)?
And I also resent the implication indirectly by you, and directly by your "return to authenticity" friend that that certain dosing methodologies or willingness to pay big dollars for quality coffees is merely "pretension". Thats a really easy and big brush to tar with (and heaven knows many of us often have it coming) but it's kind of pissing in the pool or as Nick said, throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
and also as Nick said "Either you need to clarify your statements, or Tonx is gonna call "StrawMan® on you.""
Schecter - you're on notice... ;)
I do sometimes think that the triple ristretto is too much caffiene. (but we still get those "add shot" customers)
ReplyDeleteBut as for it's place in espresso I would say it depends on your espresso. With some it brings out more desirable traits...and others it does not. It is simply a matter of customizing your equipment for the coffee's sake and not your own.
-cd
Nick:
ReplyDeleteMy beef is with the amount of caffeine that's being served. To repeat, coffee is not only a culinary creation, it's a drug, and one that can cause people problems. We should give some thought to how much caffeine we give unsuspecting customers.
The "suspecting" customers, the ones who want more caffeine, well, it's important to give it to them or they'll take their business elsewhere.
But for the average customer, there's been a "creep" where they're getting more and more caffeine as time goes on. This is not a good thing for people's health.
Sorry I used the "triple" vs "double" terminology; it's really confusing. Obviously we have baskets that are named "LM ridged double" or "Synesso triple" and people identify them that way. But calling the beverage double or triple is pretty lame, because the beverages intergrade so much that it causes more confusion than it's worth.
You said, "are you sure that a 22g double espresso pulled on a triple basket, has MORE caffeine than an 18g double?" Not sure I understand what you're getting at. But if you use 22g of ground coffee to pull a given shot, you will end up with more caffeine than if you used 18g of coffee to pull the same sized shot. No matter whether you use "double" or "triple" baskets.
You said, "now bottomless portafilters.... that's a different story. ;-)" I hear a lot about this one way or another, but I'd really be interested to read your write up against the "punani-less" pfs.
It seems to me that there's a trend within this "Third Wave Thing Of Ours" towards conformity. That the 3W crowd needs to become unified in some sort of "battle" against the 24z desiring masses. As though there's some inherent evil in large coffee drinks or "adulterated" coffee drinks.
ReplyDeleteIs there anyone in our 3W community that's truly different than the masses? Everyone does variations on what everyone else is doing. No one is truly ballsy to kick the game to a higher level. Even the 3W set wants "volume" to generate greater revenue and profitability.
We need to ask ourselves: "what is our focus with this 3W thing?" Are we pushing the limits of coffee? Are we creating a new category of cuisine? Or are we just rubbing ourselves into a self-gratifying frenzy?
When it comes right down to it, I don't care whether or not a company uses naked portafilters or triple baskets or whatever newfangled gadget or theory is floating out there. Does it taste good? Are people responding to the offering? Will it rock my world?
Does it need to be in a tiny cup? Why? So what if it isn't?
More importantly, as this "cutting edge" group of "professionals" on the "vanguard" of our "industry" - are we really comparing our companies and our product to those such as McDonald's? Right off the bat, they've got us beat. They've got solid game, along with financing, advertising and an infrastructure to do just about anything they want.
So we, as 3W cognoscenti, poo-poo on the "quality" of the coffee at McDonald's and Starbucks because that's the only game we can play. We desperately try to be "better" but no one is doing anything significantly different than Starbucks.
Just gotta say (only because I can't find a place to comment over on tonx.org) that Tonx - that photo's BRILLIANT! ;) :) I gotta steal the idea...
ReplyDeleteIt's a good comeuppance too for Andy, who's rather fond of photoshopping images as well (hint: his BillC LM Mod).
tonx:
ReplyDeleteYou said, "This is the second post where I think you are insinuating your thesis rather than stating it flat-out in order to be provocative. Am I to read this as you are advocating some particular (though unstated) extraction ratio?"
I'm not trying to be cute. I'm NOT advocating "traditional doubles" over "ristrettos." I'm NOT saying that ristrettos are a "crutch drink." ;-) I'm just saying that the drinks are HUGE, and the DRUG aspects sometimes outweigh the CULINARY aspects.
You said, "When you say a barista should be 'able to pull a single', do you mean that platonically or do you think that coffeebars should be offering that as an option in a busy production environment (which I would strongly argue against)?"
It would be nice if they offered singles. Since I'm not a working barista, could you please explain your argument against serving singles?
You said, "And I also resent the implication indirectly by you, and directly by your 'return to authenticity' friend that that certain dosing methodologies or willingness to pay big dollars for quality coffees is merely "pretension". Thats a really easy and big brush to tar with..."
I don't agree that higher prices for quality coffee is "pretension." Quality costs more. As a consumer, however, I wasn't jumping up and down cheering when COE prices got up to $50/lb.
You said, "and also as Nick said 'Either you need to clarify your statements, or Tonx is gonna call StrawMan® on you.' Schecter - you're on notice..."
I didn't understand your Strawman thing in the previous topic (since ruler flat temp profiles are dogmatically codified into the WBC standards). To repeat, I'm not trying to be obtuse or even overly provocative. Sorry I don't write more clearly; but I'm just trying to call it as I see it.
In any case, I gotta say that if there were anyone in coffee I'd wanna be on notice with, it's you Tony. ;-)
Chris:
ReplyDeleteThe stuff I've been writing about Brewing Ratios is intended to have some relevance to the "triple/double" issue. At first I was a little skeptical about the "triple ristrettos" you were pulling at Gimme (and later at Carriage House). But after tasting them, I was converted.
Here's my point: let's just say that you're using 22g of dry coffee to get 30g of delicious liquid "triple ristretto." I don't know what the actual numbers are, but it's the concept, not the actual numbers, that's important. The way I figure it, 22 divided by 30 times 100 equals a 73% "brewing ratio."
My theory is, there's GOT to be some combination of basket and technique to get the SAME FLAVOR PROFILE using a more moderate 15g of dry coffee. At the same 73% brewing ratio, a shot using 15g dry will result in 15 divided by 0.73 equals 20.5g of liquid espresso. This shot will have only 2/3 the caffeine as the original, but taste about the same.
That's what I'd like to be able to drink.
Colleagues,
ReplyDeleteCaffeine quantities in the cup also relate directly to lenth of brew time (due to principles of emulsification). Not exclusively to quantity of liquid in the cup. So, it is possible of for 18g to yield more caffeine than a 22g dose.
More importantly, it is the average customer that has NO CLUE what a REAL espresso tastes like - let alone its caffeine content. Let's focus on the PALATE! We have embraced the challenge of being Espresso Ambassadors - let's give them the small cup of LIBERTY!
Maybe 2007 could be "BIG LATTE AMNESTY" year.... TURN IN YOUR TRAVEL MUGS TODAY!
(just a thought....)
Ron
Are there cafes that don't offer singles? I usually see them on the menu, but when a double is only 21% more money, I opt for that.
ReplyDeleteWhy the sudden coffee as a drug worries? Reading through the posts it seems logic can lead one to multiple conclusions on the statement "more coffee = more caffeine." I think we need more info before throwing that out as a reason for dropping the 22g dose.
ReplyDeleteAs far as drink sizes go I think money is the culprit. Everyone is arguing the technicalities of basket sizes, dose sizes, caffeine per oz, and brainwashed consumers of super size portions, what about the money. Do the so-called 3W shops keep the 16 around just for the heck of it? No, the 16 makes money. The U.S. is brainwashed “bigger is better.” Get used to it.
If you are an existing shop owner cutting your 20 or even your 16 means cutting money in. It takes a pretty idealistic person to decide to make less money. The nation's top roasters/cafes drop the 20, but keep the 16 around. If anyone can afford to take the 16 off the menu I think the Rituals, Murkys, Intelligentsias, Artigianos, and Stumptowns can.
If a shop is keeping the 16 around for money's sake, I think they would shave off those extra grams of coffee for money's sake too. If there was an option of using less goods and maintaining the same quality, people would choose it.
If you are looking to open a shop and not have the super-sized drinks, well good luck with the bankers. To the money people, not having smoothies, blended coffee drinks, granitas, and paninis is a major concession. Dropping the 20 and 16 off is suicide to them.
The small drink, super hardcore shop is not possible when people opt for a double because it cost only 20% more and when consumers don’t like seeing COE coffees hitting $50 a pound. Coffee is a volume based business. If you sell smaller sizes you either take a cut if you can afford it, need to sell more, or raise prices. I don’t think anyone wants to just loose business, only a handful of people will respect your business more for cutting large sizes, and consumers aren’t ready for higher prices.
If you want an “authentic” coffee experience like they one you had in a small town in Italy? Well that is another business model. It is another life altogether.
Brett wrote:
ReplyDelete"If anyone can afford to take the 16 off the menu I think the Rituals, Murkys, Intelligentsias, Artigianos, and Stumptowns can."
But they're not.
Don't know if you've listened to Podcast 55 but in that episode espresso pirate captain Ken Nye discusses why Ninth Street Espresso has dropped the 16z and pretty much dropped everything a "normal" coffeeshop would offer. He even admits that dropping the 16z lost him money in the beginning but now the tide is turning and he's keeping it "pure."
Brilliant stuff.
The question really becomes when others will have the cajones to do something that audacious? For now, most of us can hide behind the "we're better than the other shops in our city" facade.
A few thoughts:
ReplyDeleteAndy, where are these people who are getting caffeine jitters? Unless you are serving espresso/coffee that is HEAVY in robusta, I don't see it. In addition, there are many articles (approx 1200 or so-- I think) concerning the benefits of caffeine. One such example that gives a good synopsis is:
http://www.webmd.com/content/Article/80/96454.htm
Wouldn't cutting their caffeine be as much or more of health hazard to them?
Singles? Yea, I can pull a fantastic single 'kudos to me' -- because I learned to make the perfect single first--before I started on the double. If people want to add a shot, we use the single, I don't pull split shots. But if someone were to ask, we could do it. Most people still get milk drinks and prefer the double.
Brett,
had we known the potential that does exist out there, we would have chosen a 'tighter' model as far as sizing. We have always only offer 12 and 16 ounce on our hot drinks. We do lose some business by not having 20 oz., but I would rather not have that business anyways. I can make a small compromise in having the 16 oz, but not more. Consequently, even though Starbucks has all the 8, 12, 16, 20 oz., in Japan, most everything is 8 oz., and the occasional 12 here and there. Here and Japan are quite different, but I learn a lot each time I visit. Offer one, maybe 2 sizes, make everything excellent, and don't apologize for not having other things. Customers will respect what you have if you have enough respect in yourself to believe/know that it is truly the best you can offer. Oh, and be certain to maintain humility.
Jay,
I think that the potential is out there, and it will take someone who can afford the brief financial hit, who already has an established businesses, to open a more 'streamlined' shop. Ken is definitely a pioneer. But many of us, yourself included, are doing much more than hiding behind "the "we're better than the other shops in our city" facade." Stumptown brewing press-pot tremendous origin coffees only, Intelly offering wondrous origin coffees, Artigiano, Elysian room, Stumptown, Intelly, etc. who are using the Clover to bring greater awareness of great coffees, as well as what we're doing here in Salt Lake City, the heart of "non-coffeedom". I think you underestimate what you do on a daily basis. It's sad to say, but fresh roasted beans, pre-heated cups,fresh grinding to order, properly textured milk, is worlds above what most everyone is offering (sigh). There's definitely leaps all of us can take to go forward, but most places will never catch up. The hope will be to get more newcomers to be quality focused rather than the alternative primordial slime in a paper cup.
John
caffe d'bolla
Salt Lake City, UT
tonx said:
ReplyDelete"Schecter - you're on notice... ;)"
Doh, I just stumbled upon your link. ROFLMAO! :-)
Awww Tonx...You put "Air Roasting" on notice too? Above Andy and PODS??
ReplyDeleteYou really know how to hurt a guy.
Jay said:
ReplyDelete"So we, as 3W cognoscenti, poo-poo on the "quality" of the coffee at McDonald's and Starbucks because that's the only game we can play. We desperately try to be "better" but no one is doing anything significantly different than Starbucks."
I'm puzzled why you appear to have such an unflattering view of your shop and all the other "3W" shops.
Perhaps you aren't doing anything TOTALLY different, ie, you serve coffee drinks just like Starbucks. But the quality is certainly far higher. Isn't that enough to earn respect (and sales from people with tastebuds)?
Kevin C said:
ReplyDelete"Awww Tonx...You put "Air Roasting" on notice too? Above Andy and PODS??
You really know how to hurt a guy"
Tonx is tarring with a really easy and big brush. But that's OK, you and I can still hold our heads high, maintain our self-respect, and drink that air roast coffee. :-)
Brett said:
ReplyDelete"Reading through the posts it seems logic can lead one to multiple conclusions on the statement "more coffee = more caffeine." I think we need more info before throwing that out as a reason for dropping the 22g dose."
While it is theoretically possible that an 18g dose could yield more caffeine than a 22g dose, it's very unlikely in the real world of competently-pulled shots.
"If you want an “authentic” coffee experience like they one you had in a small town in Italy? Well that is another business model. It is another life altogether."
This is well put, thank you for putting it so succinctly. There is the financial reality of staying in business.
As Jay mentioned, Ninth Street's pared-down menu is remarkably impressive in this context.
John P said...
ReplyDelete"Andy, where are these people who are getting caffeine jitters? Unless you are serving espresso/coffee that is HEAVY in robusta, I don't see it. In addition, there are many articles (approx 1200 or so-- I think) concerning the benefits of caffeine. One such example that gives a good synopsis is:
http://www.webmd.com/content/Article/80/96454.htm
Wouldn't cutting their caffeine be as much or more of health hazard to them?"
I guess I'm going by my own experience, and I may be more caffeine-sensitive than most folks. Perhaps, as you say, most people are not as sensitive as I.
Still, from the point of view of cuisine, small portions are desirable, no? They encourage people to focus on the quality and not on the buzz. At least that's the way it seems to me, both in food and in drink.
The purported health benefits of caffeine are very intriguing, but I've never been a fan of the "study of the month." Wait a few years and they'll tell you the opposite is true. Remember the scene in Woody Allen's "Sleeper"? He woke up in the future and they told him it had been discovered that the true health foods were chocolate and deep fat! OK, that was just a movie, but we all know there's a lot of truth to it.
I agree with Andy about the caffeine since I like life, am 24 years old and feel like I'm gonna die any day now from too much coffee... with Andy's plan I wouldn't need a spitoon attached to my belt... maybe caffeine causes nervousness or nervous people drink too much coffee? :I
ReplyDeleteSL28ave said..."I agree with Andy about the caffeine since I like life, am 24 years old and feel like I'm gonna die any day now from too much coffee... with Andy's plan I wouldn't need a spitoon attached to my belt.."
ReplyDeleteRegards, Peter: you must be another kindred soul in caffeine sensitivity. BTW, maybe you could convince George to put in a dirt floor. Then you could spit anywhere.
i was at a cafe today in NY - Synesso and Clover machines abound, and although it was a new establishment it looked like they had the game. I think ecco coffee was what they were pulling, anyways it was around 4pm and all I wanted was a quick espresso just to make it thru the day. What I felt like was a simple single espresso---thats it! I didn't want a double, or triple, or whatever you wanted to call it. The barista still made me a double but in a single shot cup, even after I kindly asked for a single. It was as if he was a 3W android! The barista was a nice enough guy, flavor was on point but it tasted like a double. Stronger taste, more volume, more caffeine. It was like he couldn't hold back and just make me a single. This bothers me! 22 grams of coffee in a triple basket pulling a tight double in single shot cup is annoying to me. Sorry I guess that makes me a douche. As a roaster I might be condoning such practices, because you know what? over a busy day sweatin it out behind the bar you are using a significant amount more of coffee (7g more/shot) and to a roaster that means $$$ so if I was a Vivace or an Ecco or Stumptown I would also purport 3w coffee dogma and create a taste that supports this. Guys I've tried doses between 15 - 20 grams and you know what I use? 15g in my double gruppe! And after you drink it you want to cry in chinese go home and make love with your wife. My point in my blog that sparked this debate is everybody is right! TASTE IS MOST IMPORTANT. But be frugal like your Grandma is in the kitchen and get the best taste with the least.
ReplyDeleteso - your thesis hinges on the fact that you don't believe these shops (like cafe grumpy) are relying on their taste-buds to determine their brewing methodologies?
ReplyDeletewhile this may often be the case, i don't think you'll find too much of that ethic in the best coffeebars and roasteries.
so perhaps the shops you have visited prefer something different from you... so what? if your espresso at home is better, who cares?
"Luigi picks up the napkin and holds it in his left hand.
ReplyDeleteWith his right hand he lifts the espresso cup and places it
above the napkin. He brings the cup and napkin to his mouth.
He takes a sip of espresso. A small fleeting expression forms
on Luigi's impassive face as if for one millisecond he is
going to vomit. His mouth opens and he allows the espresso
to fall and dribble onto the napkin. He pushes any remaining
espresso in his mouth out with his tongue. He holds it in
that position for a moment."
-David Lynch's Mulholland Drive
I love this article.
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